工人为资本家干活，资本家给工人工资，这看来是一个双方情愿的事情，没有什么不合理的，但事实上，工人有创造力，因为这种创造力，工人为企业带来了很大的益处，但工人创造的财富却被资本家盗窃走了。

he_zr 发表于 2013-7-1 00:27
逻辑上就没有自园，有没有创造力对应给不给工资，给了工资就是合理。其次，工人为企业带来很大益处，而生 ...

he_zr 发表于 2013-7-1 00:00
经济学不存在“剥削”的意义，只有政治学或刑法上存在剥削行为。所以，在经济学说“剥削”，纯属搞错领域。

crj302 发表于 2013-7-1 08:20
第一句子充满主观判断语义两可。第二没有考虑企业家投资人的自身劳动，第三没有考虑企业家投资人购买的与生 ...

林汉扬 发表于 2013-7-1 00:32
看清楚了？这是举mkszyz 网友的两个例子：“一个老农，有一个祖上传下来的文物，但老农不清楚其价值，结果 ...

冷眼老克 发表于 2013-7-1 08:51
正好说反了。因为剥削是一种经济行为，而不是一种政治的或社会犯罪的行为。

clm0600 发表于 2013-7-1 09:16
人和机器工具相比，区别还是巨大的，说人的地位工具化，这恐怕没有多大说服力。
1、有工会组织，可以和资本 ...

he_zr 发表于 2013-7-1 09:55
在交换者都是政治地位权利地位皆平等的完全民事当事人之间的交换行为，其自由、自愿、合法产生的结果都不 ...

crj302 发表于 2013-7-1 10:00
那不重要，重要的是简单劳动与复杂劳动的折算不起作用，你没有科学合理的劳动兑价标准。企业家与投资人 ...

clm0600 发表于 2013-7-1 10:16
1.有工会：但当今的中国没有。
2.有福利，带薪年假：当今中国的农民工也没有。
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冷眼老克 发表于 2013-7-1 10:21
“剥削”是一种对人权的侵犯。把劳动力当成生产工具的物来看待的雇佣劳动制侵犯了工人发展个人生产力的权 ...

he_zr 发表于 2013-7-1 10:53
回答得不得要领。如果劳动力等于劳动者本身，那么人类就不会有劳动成果创造了，因为劳动成果都是用劳动力 ...

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he_zr 发表于 2013-7-1 10:53
回答得不得要领。如果劳动力等于劳动者本身，那么人类就不会有劳动成果创造了，因为劳动成果都是用劳动力 ...

冷眼老克 发表于 2013-7-1 12:02
你不认为工人出卖给资本家的标的物不是限定在人的体力和智力的范围之内吗？但劳动力作为人身体的机能，一 ...

clm0600 发表于 2013-7-1 12:09
说劳动力当成商品出卖不就是以工人的人身自由在契约规定的时间内的丧失为条件吗？
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不要 ...